Crystal: I’m Crystal DiMiceli, and welcome to the Forces for Nature show.
Do you find yourself overwhelmed with all the doom and gloom you hear of these days? Do you feel like you, as just one person, can’t really make a difference? Forces for Nature cuts through that negativity. In each episode, I interview somebody who is doing great things for animals and the environment. We talk about the challenge they’re addressing, the solution they have found, what keeps them going, And we’ll leave you with practical action tips so that you too can become a force for nature.
Today’s guest is Dr. Rupa Krithivasan, the Director of Research for the organization Defend Our Health. At Defend Our Health, they believe that all people have a right to safe food and drinking water, healthy homes, and products that are toxic free and climate friendly. It’s kind of crazy that we even have to fight for those things.
They recently released a report titled Hidden Hazards, the Chemical Footprint of a Plastic Bottle, which tracks the impact of plastic bottles on human health and climate change. Now, we all know that plastic has become a problem, but there’s even more to the story that might surprise you.
Roopa: Hi, Rupa.
Crystal: Thank you so much for joining me on Forces for Nature. It’s so
Roopa: great to have you. Thank you so much for having me, Crystal.
Crystal: So today we’re going to be talking about plastic pollution, and we already know that plastic pollution is really bad. You were an author on a report this year that shows that there are issues with plastics.
That go much deeper than the very visible problems that we can see with litter, with physical litter. What’s missing from the story about plastic problems?
Roopa: I think you’re absolutely right. It’s really obvious to anyone that the world has a massive. plastic trash problem. But what’s less obvious is that there are a number of other but equally problematic issues with plastic.
So as you said, we had a report out this year called the Hidden Hazards of Plastic, and we used single use plastic bottles as a case study to show exactly where the problems are with plastics that most of us never actually see. The type of plastic used in most bottles is called polyethylene terthallate, or PET, and it’s technically one of the most recyclable plastics.
It has a Overall, a pretty good reputation as far as plastics go, but there are still so many problems with it that start long before it ever becomes trash.
Crystal: Okay, so then let’s start from the
Roopa: beginning. So first, the vast majority of plastics are made from petrochemicals. What that means is that fossil based crude oil and fracked gas that we worry about as fossil fuels because of their climate change impact.
are also a part of nearly every single piece of plastic that we use. And the process of converting fossil based oil and gas into plastics releases toxic chemicals into the water we drink, the air we breathe, soil where our crops grow, and getting from that crude oil or fracked gas to plastic involves multiple steps of chemical processing, refining, and polymerization.
Every single one of those steps contributes. to toxic pollution. And some of these chemicals are particularly bad. There are two in particular that are involved in the manufacture of PET plastic. One is called 1, 4 dioxane and the other is ethylene oxide that we’ve spent a good deal of time thinking about in the last year.
And we’ve found that they’re both chemicals that are identified by the EPA as carcinogens or potential carcinogens. And the PET industry is the largest industrial contributor. of these two pollutants in the U. S. Geez. And those are just two of the dozens of known toxic chemicals that are released into the environment when PET plastic is made.
Crystal: And unsurprisingly, the people who are most affected by the manufacture of this plastic and other chemicals that are related to it are those that live closest to the manufacturing plants.
Roopa: Absolutely. And what we found in our analysis is that 57 percent of PET supply chain chemical plants in the U. S.
are in communities where the Proportion of residents of color exceed the national average, and 83 percent of these plants are in communities where the larger proportion of residents are low income. And so what this means is that the manufacture of these plastics significantly contribute to environmental injustice.
Um, and another thing that’s worth noting is that it isn’t just the people who live alongside these manufacturing facilities, they also affect us as consumers, especially for children and pregnant people. So every time you have a plastic product, including a plastic bottle, but also PVC pipes and siding and flooring and really anything else that you might encounter in your.
House that’s made of plastic, they use chemical additives and processing aids to make these plastics and they don’t just sit there benignly. They can actually migrate out of the finished plastic product and contribute to the air. We breathe the dust in our homes and they do have impacts on our health.
So we looked particularly closely at a chemical called antimony trioxide that’s used to process plastic bottles. And we found that that chemical does in fact end up in the water that we drink in the beverages in those bottles and they can affect human health.
Crystal: So we’re getting exposed to these chemicals even after the container is created and is supposedly in an inert form, like there’s still, that’s correct.
Is it if the chem, if the plastics get warm or microwaved or. Just
Roopa: being, yeah. So we, we looked a bunch into some of the peer reviewed literature around this and what we found is that there are labs where they subjected plastic bottles to microwaving, they put them in temperature systems that are very similar to say how hot the trunk of a car would get on a really hot summer day.
And they did find that these chemicals leach more readily from the plastics into water or other beverages, uh, more easily. In those conditions, when there’s heat, when there is UV involved, sometimes it happens more readily with acidic beverages. So if you think of a Coke bottle that you left in the trunk of your car, say, in Southern California on a hot day where outdoor temperatures are 110 in the back of your car, it’s probably going to be around 140, 150, and that beverage has likely had a good deal more of this chemical migrate into it.
Then is intended. And yet many of us do in fact, consume beverages at that point. You mentioned
Crystal: UV as well. And it just makes me think of, you know, parties outside in the summer. Are you using plastic cups by the pool? You’re using pool float toys and all sorts of things. And especially kids using toys.
They’re being exposed to this chemical, which is, it’s. Terrifying. Absolutely. Are there any legal or policy barriers that make it difficult to reduce single use plastic?
Roopa: I think, again, that the issue comes back to lobbying around plastics. The plastic industry is heavily represented by the American Chemical Council, and they have the ear of many politicians and lawmakers, and to a certain extent the public, as I said.
Are very much in the business of making the argument that plastics are essential for our lives that there are no better alternatives that they are necessary. And again, that recycling is a viable solution. And so I think the legal barriers that emerge. For example, when we’re told that certain toxic chemicals used in plastics are necessary, or when we’re told that bans on certain types of plastics are going to be bad for business or bad for economies, those are flowing directly from the plastic industry that are influencing legal institutions and policy to continue favoring plastics.
I think that there are also lawmakers who have the best intentions and who are listening to those of us who are increasingly making noise about how big of a problem plastic is from a health perspective, from a waste perspective, from an environmental perspective. So we are, you know, hopeful that there are significant policy strides that can be made to solve the single use plastic problem.
Crystal: The lovies are doing a really good job because I feel like I’m seeing more plastic than ever before. I mean, I’ve even seen individual bananas wrapped in plastic. I don’t understand why. I’ve never understood that. Or apples, like individual apples wrapped in plastic. It’s like nature has its own. Covering.
Like, what? I don’t understand. So they’re Exactly. They’re really doing a good job. So what about recycling? That’s supposed to be our savior.
Roopa: Yeah, I very much belong to the generation that was taught From a very young age, that circularity is possible, meaning that when we use a material, whether it’s plastic or anything else, if we recycle it correctly, it’ll be turned back into brand shiny, new usable products.
And the onus lies in the hands of consumers who just need to recycle things properly. But the problem is that that’s absolutely not true. The biggest issue is that we’ve done a really bad job in the U. S. developing. Recycling infrastructure that can actually support the amount of waste that we produce and that works in all of the ways that are necessary to be the most efficient, the cleanest and safest infrastructure.
It can be so about 30 percent of all plastic bottles that are used end up. In the recycling stream, but of that 30 percent only 10 percent is converted back into bottles. The rest of it is lost in various ways or downcycled that is converted into something that’s a little significantly lower quality and that likely can’t be recycled again.
That is a problem that has many different causes. Again. 1 of the biggest ones is the lack of infrastructure. Another really big 1 is contamination. So in any collection system that co mingles different plastics, say if you live in a town or jurisdiction where you have single stream waste recyclable collection, what you often see is that plastics that are absolutely not suitable for food contact, for something that can end up as food packaging, comes into direct contact with plastics that are intended for food packaging, like plastic bottles.
So what you end up with is your plastic bottles, your reusable cream cheese tubs, all of these things that could in theory be recycled back into high quality plastic products that could be used for things like new bottles and new tubs for food. You cannot do that because they’ve come in contact with plastic jugs that were used for holding pesticides and automotive.
Fluids and right there you have this massive contamination of what could have been a much cleaner plastic stream. Uh, and when you’ve done that, yeah, you no longer can use those products. The way I think the average consumer assumes they’ll be used in recycling. So
Crystal: wash out everything.
Roopa: And then the other issue is of microplastics.
Anytime you have a plastic going through mechanical recycling, it gets chopped up into little pieces. It’s cleaned, it’s processed, and it’s remelted into new plastics. That’s sort of the short version of it. Well, every time you do that, you’re producing little tiny flecks of plastic. We’ve all heard the term microplastics before, and a recent report shows that 13 percent of plastics processed for recycling end up as microplastics that end up in our water, in our air.
And that’s really massive. Once you have a microplastic out in the environment, you really just can’t recover it. And so that’s, again, another part of the recycling story that’s, that we’re just starting to scratch the surface of. It’s such a huge problem. Yeah.
Crystal: Now, what about this new chemical recycling or advanced recycling that I’m hearing about?
Roopa: There’s been a lot of excitement, again, largely propped up by the plastic and chemical industry about this new type of recycling. And what these involve is taking plastics, even if they’re contaminated, and breaking them down into their constituent chemicals and then reconstituting them into new plastics.
And in theory, these processes should involve a much easier way to remove impurities and contaminants. This sounds amazing on paper. I remember when I first heard about this, I was so excited. But then when you start digging into what these processes actually are and what they do, and what kind of Energy and input goes into them.
What you realize that even in the very best of cases, they are so energy intensive. They produce massive amounts of greenhouse gases and toxic chemicals. They require us a ridiculous amount of water compared to traditional recycling. And ultimately the products that. Emerge from them aren’t even new plastics.
They’re mostly used to create chemicals that are used as fuel. So you’re effectively going through all of this processing ultimately to burn the plastic, you might as well just be incinerating it. And so you have this really big push to convince consumers that chemical recycling is going to solve our problems.
And I am rather sad to say that that does not. look like that’s going to be the case anytime soon. So all that to say, I do think there are ways that recycling in particular, traditional mechanical recycling can be improved, but I do not think it’s the solution. This problem
Crystal: is way bigger than I realized and way more discouraging than I realized.
And in these moments, I like to look for reasons for hope. And, and things that are being done to fix the problem. So what would need to happen in order for these problems to be solved?
Roopa: I think we have to take a multi pronged approach, but the absolute most important and central part of that is source reduction.
And what I mean by that is we have to turn off the plastic tap. So many of the plastics that are in the world right now, as you mentioned, Are completely useless and completely pointless. There are alternatives to them, or we can go without using them at all. We don’t need to wrap our bananas in plastic.
We don’t need bubble wrap in everything that ever gets sent in the mail. There are a lot of packaging solutions that we have used historically that didn’t involve vast amounts of plastic. And I think we can be very creative and come up with alternatives that are made of all sorts of interesting new materials.
But even before we get to that point, I think there’s so much assessment we can do to figure out what we can completely cut out and do without. And then once we’ve done that, once we’ve eliminated all of these unnecessary uses, yes, there absolutely will still be certain places where plastics are necessary.
There are certain medical systems and applications that. would not exist today without plastics. That’s absolutely true. But even in those situations, you’ll find that not all plastics are created equal. Some are safer than others, and many of them can be reformulated to remove some of the worst chemicals that are involved either in their manufacture or that are added to them to give them certain properties.
So, as we start thinking about how we improve the plastic problem, once we’ve gotten rid of the worst uses, We can then shift our focus or simultaneously shift our focus to say here’s how we can make plastics cleaner. By manufacturing them better and by formulating them better. And then finally, one thing that we miss is the manufacture of these plastics involved.
Again, so many steps, the creation of so many different toxins and pollutants, and we have technologies to reduce the impacts of those pollutants in the communities where these facilities are located. We could be using these technologies to say, Reduce the emission of ethylene oxide that badly affects fence line communities, but we’re not using them.
So by mandating the use of the cleanest possible technologies, when plastics do need to be produced, we could be having a massive impact on the health of the people who live closest to these facilities and who have historically borne the brunt of industry in general. So I think we have a lot of solutions available to us.
We just need to actually make a concerted effort to apply them.
Crystal: And it sounds like there needs to be some cradle to grave regulations from the governments that require facilities to control their emissions more effectively in the creation stages, and then require them to set up recycling facilities where then they can source the materials for future Plastics instead of using oil in a perfect world.
So with your organization, defend our health, you’ve been working to push the resolution of these problems. Can you describe some of the initiatives your organization has undertaken to combat the single use? plastic problem?
Roopa: Absolutely. We have been working very hard to remove some of the worst chemicals from plastics to ban some of the worst single use products.
And we’ve done that both in the state where our office is located in Maine, and we’ve also been pushing to do that more and more at the federal level. So in the state of Maine, we’ve helped pass bans on toxic chemicals that are used in plastic packaging, including BPA and phthalates, specifically in materials that are used in food contact.
Those are one of the most direct lines of exposure to consumers. So we’ve been pushing really hard to remove those chemicals from that pathway. And we’ve also successfully pushed for a ban on single use plastics and food packaging that’s made of styrofoam, which is a known carcinogen and among the worst plastics that usually can be replaced with something else just as effectively.
And we’re increasingly Putting pressure on major brands like Coca Cola, they have an outsized role and responsibility to work with plastic suppliers and make sure that they’re making them cleaner and better. They also have the ability to transition from single use plastics to refillable solutions. And so a lot of our work is thinking about how we engage with consumers and how those consumers can then push major brands like Coca Cola to make.
Better choices that are safer for their consumers. And we’re also continuing to spread awareness about the inadequacies of policies that regulate these toxic chemicals in plastics and that prop up recycling as the ultimate solution. And so, as I said before, there’s just so much work to be done. We are a small organization, but we do believe that we’re small and mighty.
And we are very lucky to be part of, of larger groups of small organizations across the country that are all working concertedly to work with their supporters, to inform the public, to inform It’s a really great way to inform policymakers about how we can bring real change and real improvements to plastics and the plastic industry in a way that promotes a safer and healthier future for everyone.
Crystal: Besides the companies and besides governments stepping in, what can the individual do? What can the listener do to contribute effectively to this cause?
Roopa: Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s something that I think about every day as a consumer and as a buyer of things. Ultimately, I think, as I said, the market is just absolutely overrun with plastic products that we don’t need, but we do still have the ability to vote with our dollars and to make the best choices possible.
When we are purchasing, you can look for products that have refillable options. You can look for products that have the absolute minimum packaging. You can look for things that have no plastic packaging. They do exist. They’re out there. We just have to find them. And then when you do find them, it’s not a bad idea to Use that story to amplify the importance of phasing out single use plastic.
So, you know, post on social media, let brands know that you appreciate it when they minimize their packaging and let brands know that you really don’t appreciate how much plastic packaging they’re using. As the case may be, uh, social media is a really powerful tool. There are brands that pay a heck of a lot of attention to what their consumers are saying about their product.
So, it is something that I think can be really critically leveraged to make a change.
Crystal: And this whole conversation is reminding me of another episode that I did on this other show I have called the Healthy Seas Podcast. And I interviewed a company called NOTPLA, which actually stands for Not Plastic. And they’re creating packaging options from seaweed.
So, it’s fully decomposable. Um, not petroleum fossil fuel based whatsoever. And it’s, it’s a really great option. They even have these to replace water bottles. They have these little squares that you like pop in your mouth and then like bursts with water. I’m not describing them well, but there are options out there that exist and we just need to demand it.
We need to ask for it through. either petitions or letter writing, or even shouting out companies on social media, like you said, because that is actually quite effective and buying them because voting with your dollar is probably the most powerful of
Roopa: all. Absolutely. And I will say that this is my own personal perspective, but I always carry a water bottle with me that I can refill.
I can always find used and More or less free and about to be tossed products that can replace things that I would otherwise buy new. There are a lot of personal solutions that, that we can adopt that can make a difference. Um, but also, yeah, I think ultimately we’re going to have to push governments and large corporate institutions to do better.
And I do think as consumers, we have a lot of power to actually make them listen. I
Crystal: agree. Rupa, thank you so much for taking the time with me today. Thank you for all that you do. You’re making a difference.
Roopa: Thank you so much for having me, Crystal.
I
Crystal: have to say, the thing that most surprised me was all that about recycling. And I know that I wouldn’t be alone. In the pre survey that I do in my Action for Climate educational program, when asked about what they already do that they consider eco friendly, 95 percent of the students say recycling. Now I’m not going to toss it out the window just because it’s not the be all end all solution we’ve all been led to believe, but I do think we need to keep pushing for its improvement.
And even more so, we need to reduce our overall demand of single use plastics. Plastics are necessary in some instances, and they don’t have to be the enemy. If we remain informed, we can take the actions needed to be mindful for our health and the health of the planet. Don’t forget to go to forcesfornature.
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