Crystal: I’m Crystal DiMiceli and welcome to the forces for nature show.

Do you find yourself overwhelmed with all the doom and gloom you hear of these days? Do you feel like you as just one person can’t really make a difference? Forces for nature cuts through that negativity. In each episode, I interview somebody who’s doing great things for animals and the environment. We talk about the challenge they’re addressing the solution.

They have found what keeps them going and will leave you with practical action tips so that you two can become a force for nature. Today’s guest is Dr. Rodrigo Medellin otherwise affectionately known as the Batman. He’s an award-winning ecologist. Who’s been a key player in the conservation of these misunderstood animals so much so that his work helped to get the lesser long known bat off the endangered species.

And for anyone with an appreciation for margaritas, they should be grateful for that. That’s because the species is vital for the pollination and reproduction of the wild agave plant. The plant that gives us products such as tequila and mescal. Why not pour yourself a drink and enjoy listening to Rodrigo?

Tell us more. Oh, and just a quick side note, please. Excuse some of the construction noises that you’ll hear at certain points.

Hi, Dr. Rodrigo, thank you so much for joining me on forces for nature. It’s so great to have you.

Rodrigo: It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you for calling Christo.

Crystal: So let’s jump right in. Can you tell me why bats are indispensable to humans?

Rodrigo: Sure absolutely pats, believe it or not touch each and every one of your days, they provide incredible services and products that we would not have without them.

There’s three major benefits that we enjoy every day and we can really summarize them very quickly. Best control. I mean, if you eat any rice, any corn, any tomatoes or, or chili peppers or squash or zucchini, whatever you are connected with bats, because bats are the most effective best controllers of those crops.

And many more, if you had any coffee or any tea, Equally you are connected to bat. And if you’re wearing any cotton, our estimates is, is that about one third of, of the cotton in the world is due to bats eating the main pests of, of cotton. So that is the first one. The second one is seed dispersal. I live in a tropical country, Mexico, but everywhere in the TRO.

You are going to the, to the market in, in, in the summer, like now. And you’re gonna find a lot of different fruits that are actually dispersed by bats. In other words, from SAP purpose to what we call see, well, as to guava, to mangoes, to think, et cetera, many more dozens and dozens of different fruits. We have them because baths have been dispersing the seeds.

Of these planned for millions of years now, the, the benefit doesn’t stop there. The benefit of see dispersing bats is that they are in charge of regenerating the tropical forests of the world. Africa Asia, Latin America, you name it. It’s actually bats that are dispersing the seeds. And we have measured that bats dispersed between three and five seeds per square meter per day.

Whereas birds. Disperses between half and one seed per square meter per day. So we, we do see the birds because, you know, birds are diurnal and visual like us, but birds are not to and acoustic and we do not cross paths with them. So it’s very difficult for us to see them. And what we see is that little bird eating at fruit and, and dropping some seeds and everything well, bath dispersed, five times more seeds than.

So if you, if you allow bat to, to do their deed, they are going to regenerate the tropical forest of the world in a flash. And then the last one is pollination. There’s many species of plans that are ecologically or economically important that depend on bats for their poll. Let’s take, for example, if you go to the, to the deserts of the Southwest of the United States, north of Mexico, central of Mexico as well, you are going to see this incredibly beautiful giant colonial cacti.

All of the colo cacti depend on bats for the pollination. So imagine that Western movie without colonial Kati, that’s what it would look like. If bats were not. And finally, what can I tell you, crystal, as a Mexican given the fact that bats are the main pollinators of agaves, which is the main source for tequila and for mezcal, which is part of our identity and represents many billions of dollars for the Mexican economy, more than 50,000 families are connected to this economy.

Every drop of the ke me. Is connected to bats because bats poll got it.

Crystal: Wow. And then I wonder how many people actually realize that

Rodrigo: it is time that everybody realizes that everybody recognizes that. And not only that, I mean, if your, if your audience is people who are interested in biodiversity is concerned on my university.

Well, let me tell you this little. Of information, take whatever alcoholic, beverage of choice that you prefer to drink on weekends or on holidays or whatever. All right. Now I have to tell you that that drink, that you chose comes from a monoculture. It’s doing nothing to protect biodiversity, except for.

Mezcal mezcal is the only alcoholic beverage that is commercially available that does not come from monocultures. It comes from managed ecosystems. Sure. But every plant of agave is interacting with a lot of other plants and a lot of other animals. So if you are truly determined to protect bio university to help bio university in every way, your beverage or choice has to be mescal.

Crystal: Now that’s any kind of mescal or only the certified, uh, very good, which I wanna get into as well.

Rodrigo: Very good question, because it’s really not any kind of mescal and that is when it gets a little tricky. You have to dig deeper and look at the bottle and look at the label and look at how it was. It was produced.

if the label has absolutely zero information, how was it harvested? How was it cooked? How was it crossed? How was it fermented? How was it distilled then? That is not a good Mecal and you know, the mezcal producers know it. You go to any liquor store and you start looking at different bottles. You’re gonna find some bottle that give you a lot more information than others.

The more information that you get, the more likely that mezcal is good for biodiversity, and it is a good product for. As we say in Mexico.

Crystal: Can you translate that for our non-Spanish

Rodrigo: speakers? Sure. For all evil Mecal for all good as well.

Crystal: yep. I get that. And well, speaking of looking at labels, you helped to create the bat friendly certification for tequila and Mecal, which is a stamp that you can find on the bottles. What makes a product that friendly,

Rodrigo: basically what happens.

Agaves are these, these spiky round plans that grow. And every year they accumulate sugar and they accumulate sugar, accumulate sugar until their sexual reproduction age comes to happen. And then they invest every last ounce of those sugar into one single sexual reproductive event. And then they grow these flowering.

Into the sky, open their arms and, and then the bats are attracted and, and bad. Carry out. Pollination exchanging genetic information between PLA one plant and another, and therefore securing the future of AEs. The problem is that tequila producers have learned that if they harvest the plants just before they start flowering, they maximize the amount of sugar in the plant.

And therefore they maximize the amount of alcohol that they produce. So they have not allowed a single plant to flower for more than 150 years. And instead what they do is when they harvest the Naga field. They use the baby agaves that grow under the parent plant that are CLAL copies, exact copies, exact genetic copies of the parent plant to replant their fields.

And what, what that does is they’re losing genetic diversity every time they do it so much so that today we know that 260 million plants of agave are close of five individuals. And that’s. So genetic diversity is zero. It’s really high time that the producers allow the tequila producers because mezcal doesn’t have that problem.

But, but the tequila producers allow 5% and only 5% of those are Gavita flour. And then the university of Mexico and the tequila interchange project, which is an organization composed. Bartenders tequila, producers, tequila, marketers, et cetera. We, we recognize your efforts and that label goes on on the bottle telling the consumer, this is a bad, friendly tequila, bad, friendly MECA.

Crystal: Besides this loss of food sources from the creation of cloned monocultures, what are other threats that bats

Rodrigo: face? Yeah, we’ve been looking at threats of bats around the world, and it really boils down to a handful of threats. The main being the lack of information in the public, which ends up causing that people.

Kill thats out of fear, out of not knowing how important, how crucial they are for the ecosystem functioning and for our wellbeing. Meaning. Here in Mexico and many places in Latin America, the main threat is the destruction of roofs. People go into caves or, or tunnels or bridges or old warehouses and things that have that have bats in them.

And they either Fugate them or burn them or dynamite them or gas, them, all kinds of things. And, and fortunately that threat is a very easy threat to. All it takes is really that one bad biologist comes to talk to that community. Talk to those people. And in half an hour, crystal, seriously, in half an hour, you can turn them into bad defenders.

You give them the, the evidence you give them the facts. You give them the images and they are there in a flat. Now there’s many others, many other threats and not many, but several. For example, the destruction of habitat has been, um, uh, a major problem in many places for some species of fat wind energy.

We’ve shown that wind energy may become a threat if not properly mitigated wind energy. The issue here is that we have the mitigation measure. We identify and a few places, especially in the United States, you can actually see the mitigation. Basically the mitigation is this. When you, when you have a, a wind farm, the wind turbines start turning at a wind speed of about three meters per second, which is a breeze.

It’s a breeze. And because it’s a breeze, there’s a lot of insects up there. And therefore there’s a lot of bats up there and therefore a lot of bats are being killed by the. At six beaters per second, which is still a breeze, but a little stronger think of when you’re sitting on the, on the beach, that is the kind of a breeze that six meters per second is at six beaters per second.

The, the insects cannot control their flight. So they stop flying. They grab to whatever surface and therefore the bats are not. If you change the kick in wind speed at which the wind turbine starts turning from three meters per second to six meters per second, then that in itself saves about 70% of the mortality that that particular wind turbine is going to cost.

And in the process, any particular individual wind turbine produces about 1% of the energy that is going to produce in a. In that interval room three to six meters per second. So for 1% of the energy, you’re saving 70% of the bots. It’s a no brainer. It should be straightforward. Fortunately, there’s several companies that are already implementing that.

Of course, we have to talk about white nose syndrome, that disease that has scaled about 6 million bats in the United States alone. And that came to the United States as an exotic invasive likely in the boots of a speed Lanka who came from Europe, which, where the fungus that causes the disease is systemic and, and brought it into upstate New York.

In upstate New York, they, they went into a cave and that started that’s the, that’s the epicenter of the growth of the disease. Now the disease killed from 2006 to 2010, about 6 million bats from 2010 to now not another million bats have been. Bats are becoming resistant. People are doing all kinds of things to protect bad from the disease, et cetera.

So therefore the threat that this disease is causing is it’s diminishing. It’s likely that the fungus is going to come into Mexico, but Mexico is not going to have a major problem in terms of the disease killing many bats. And then finally, the last threat that I can really think of is heavy metals and other pesticides and other chemicals that people use that may end up killing bats, and we can also mitigate those.

So in terms of the threats, threats are manageable, we can protect bats from those threats.

Crystal: Quick little side note story. I’m a part of a group called the merging wildlife conservation leaders. And when you’re in, in the program, you do training for two years and you take on a project. And so our group, our project was to work with back conservation international, and they had requested that we create.

Back guano harvesting guidelines. And we created these guidelines that were then accepted by the I cm.

Rodrigo: Fantastic. Well, guess what? We are using your guidelines because we are producing the first ever, but friendly guano. So. Next year, we’re launching a new product that is going to home depots and things like that.

That is gonna have the seal of the university of Mexico saying this GU has been harvested safely for the bats.

Crystal: And you are looking at the IUC on guidelines for that. We are, oh my gosh. Oh,

Rodrigo: small,

Crystal: smaller. so best. Have a very special place in my heart.

Thank

Rodrigo: you for your.

Crystal: Wonderful. Now vets have gained a bad reputation because they’ve been associated with the transmission of diseases.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Rodrigo: Sure, absolutely. The main, the main issue when you are working with bads and trying to protect bads is their public image. There’s many animals that have a negative public image. You look at snakes at scorpions, at spiders at sharks at bats. People don’t like those animals.

Well, none of those animals does more for our everyday wellbeing than bats. So the first thing that we need to do is to, to improve that image. And the problem is, you know, that bad image comes from the Dracula times and from the association, things that are really not true. And then along comes COVID and then there is this particular click of S.

Who are climbing that bats gave us COVID, there’s absolutely zero evidence crystal zero evidence that bats gave us COVID. It is true that there is this one virus that is, that is 96% similar to the virus that gives us COVID. That doesn’t mean that this virus from us is coming from that virus. The truth is that those two viruses share a common, a.

Nobody knows how long ago. And that common sister gave rise to a lot of other coronaviruses. Many of those that are not a problem. So unfortunately, very dire statements in places like national public radio and other places said that bats gave us COVID. And that you are that if you have bad living in your Belfry, or if you’re going into a cave, or if you, if a bad lies by you’re exposed to the virus, True.

Absolutely not true. Categorically, not true. So when I don’t think I have ever worked harder crystal than in the last two and a half years in which. I have been giving lectures and lectures and lectures of why it is not true that bads gave of COVID defending bad from this crazy accusation. Fortunately, people have seen that.

It is the true that if you are gonna unfortunately get the disease, you’re gonna get it from another human being, not from a bad,

Crystal: what have you done to help people become enamored with these animals? Because me, people under misunderstand them and they’re afraid of bets.

Rodrigo: I know, and, and it began many years ago, more than 30 years ago that I started doing this and, and you start finding the best conduit to convey the information.

It’s just a matter of learning the facts. And communicating the facts once you dispel the myths, and once you give them the right information, people are going to themselves expand and, and multiply and diversify that information to the rest of their nucleus, et cetera.

Crystal: What are a couple of myths that people are convinced of?

Rodrigo: Well, one of them, of course, is associated with that Dracula book. I mean, I love the mono novel. The novel is amazing, but let’s, let’s look at the origin of this. When Helan Cortez came with his army and with his strips, one of them Gonzalo Hernandez XDO was a very. Servant guy, a guy who with a very good eye for natural history.

And he saw that the first night that there horses and the soldiers spent on the coast of Mexico, he saw these little, he never uses the word bats. He saw these little animals that were landing that were flying and landing on the horses or on the, on the soldiers and biting them to feed on their. Well, that is what Gonzal man reflected in his Chronicles.

Then let’s fast forward 350 years into the future. And let’s go to Ireland where bra stalker is. Writing his beautiful novel Dracula, where he introduces the, the concept of a vampire. Now the, the word vampire comes from the se from central Europe, and it’s referring to a human being that is dead, that wakes up at night and goes around biting young people for the blog.

That is the origin of the word vampire never. A connection with the figure of a bat, but it’s actually bra stocker, who did us the own favor of connecting the two and showing how a vampire, a human being that is there that is blocked thirsty in order for him to fly long distances, then he would turn into a bat.

And that is the beginning of the demise of the public image. A. So from that to the devil, that they are the invoice of the devil, et cetera, all of those things have intertwined to make it very difficult to people, to, to actually appreciate bad for what they are. So we, we have still a lot to do to counter that negative.

It

Crystal: sounds to me that it boils down to misunderstanding or just not knowing the facts.

Rodrigo: Absolutely.

Crystal: Now, can you tell me about a time when you said to yourself this, this is why I do it. So a success story or proud moment.

Rodrigo: Oh yes. That’s many, but let me tell you one, at least I’d like to go incognito to caves without telling anybody that Dr.

Mein is coming. And Laura Navarro, my environmental education director had been working on a cave in Metrocan west of here for several years. So I just drove by with my family and I stopped at the cave. This cave used to be a caving, which it, it has lots of fossil, mostly Fern in which the kids, the local kids would take fossil ferns and sell them to you for a PE.

This time I get out of the car and two kids come to come to us and they tell us, give me a patient. I’ll tell you why bats are good. I’ll tell you what bats are here. and how do they benefit our life? My God, that was a dream come true for me. oh, wow. Imagine my feeling right. I mean that’s best of course, you know, there of the other, one of the other, he got everything absolutely clear.

Crystal: Oh, fantastic. That has to feel so amazing.

Rodrigo: Amazing. I cannot tell you how good I felt

Crystal: now. What can the listener do to help wherever they are to help bats.

Rodrigo: There’s many things that any listener in the world can do to benefit bats. Number one is communicate what you learn today in today’s show. Just, just tell your family, your friends at the office at the school, whatever you tell them about how bads are important to us.

Number two, find out what bad protection organizations are in your area. There’s many all around the world and connect with them. We have several here in Mexico, citizen science projects to help. You, you can, you can connect with those and not only report, but that may be in trouble, but also tell us about bad colonies that may not be recognized here in Mexico city.

We have 14 different colonies right now of thousands of bats each and every one of them. So you can, you can continue help. Learn about where bots are. Why are they there? How many are there? How long, so on and so forth. All of the natural history. Number three, get a bad detector. There’s many bad detectors.

There’s one brand called echo meter touch. Echo meter touch is a little square that you plug onto your phone like that. And it turns your phone into a bad detector. You go out at. Crystal in Rome, get one of those things and you’re gonna have a blast. You’re gonna be walking on the streets of Rome and you’re gonna detect these bats and these little thing, not with absolute certainty, but it’s gonna give you an idea of what’s a species of bat that is flying around you.

Number. You can build, and this is a lovely family project. You can build a bad house and put a bad house up against the wall of your house or against the tree. There’s lots of guidelines and Europe ads and organization that protects bats. All of Europe has a lot of guidelines of how to create the. Bad house for your region, for your species, et cetera, and just, you know, enjoy the baths coming in and taking some mosquitoes out of your hair and, and taking the malls.

And, you know, basically seeing the baths coming out every night, it’s just an amazing, beautiful thing that everyone can do.

Crystal: And I wanna bring up what we mentioned before with looking for bat certified Mecal and te.

Rodrigo: Bad friendly, mezcal, bad friendly tequila. Absolutely. That’s another thing. And this is, this is our most open invitation to everyone.

Next time you enjoy a nice sip of mezcal or tequila, and I’m not talking about, you know, spring breakers that are going no, you know, the, the, the next time you enjoy a nice quiet evening, pour some tequila, pour some mescal. And the first. Drink it to the, to the health of bats. Thank the bats for everything they do.

They need it. And we are due. To give them justice.

Crystal: Absolutely. So if you’re listening, definitely look for that label. absolutely. Cause that’s one way that you would certainly help bats. So Dr. Reggie, go, thank you so much for chatting with me today. It’s been an honor. Thank you for all that you do. You’re making a difference.

Rodrigo: I’ve had a blast. Thank you for having me, Christo.

Crystal: It’s nearly impossible to calculate the value of the ecosystem services that bests provide from pest control to seed dispersal, to pollination their existence, benefits us in more ways than we even realize. However, large scale industries, such as what agave has become, tend to use farming methods that negatively impact bats and many other species.

And in reality, it makes them vulnerable too. For example, in the case of agave diseases can spread more quickly in monocultures endangering the crop to widespread failure on less intensive. Synthetic inputs are used such as pesticides and fertilizers, and those create a whole other set of problems that we can talk about another day.

Dr. Rodrigo has shown that allowing just 5% of these plants to flower and be naturally pollinated by bats would bring enough genetic diversity to help strengthen and protect this culturally revered crop by letting nature do its job. It’s a win for farmers and a win for bats.

Don’t forget to go to forces for nature.com and sign up to receive emailed show notes, action tips, and a free checklist to help you start taking practical actions today. Do you know someone else who would enjoy this episode? I would be so grateful if you would share it with them. Hit me up on Instagram and Facebook at becoming forces for nature.

And let me know what actions you have been taking. Adopting just one habit can be a game changer because imagine if a million people also adopted that. What difference for the world are you going to make today?