[00:00:00] Crystal: I’m Crystal DiMiceli and welcome to the Forces for Nature Show. Do you find yourself overwhelmed with all the doom and gloom you hero of these days? Do you feel like you as just one person, can’t really make a difference? Forces for Nature cuts through that negativity. In each episode, I interview somebody who’s doing great things for animals and the environment.

We talk about the challenge they’re addressing, the solution they have found what keeps them going, and we’ll leave you with practical action tips so that you, too, can become a force for nature.

Today’s guest is Devin Show. She’s the campaigns director for Born Free USA, an organization that works to ensure that all wild animals, whether living in captivity or in the wild, are treated with compassion and respect and are able to live their lives according to their needs.

Born Free has so many campaigns running to protect wildlife, but today we’re gonna focus on animals in captivity. Especially when it comes to exotic pets and forced interactions. We all wanna believe that the animals that we see are okay and are treated well, but they may not be. And it’s not always that easy to tell.

Devin, thank you so much for joining me today on Forces for Nature. It’s so great to have you. Yes. Thank you for having me. We’re seeing wild animals as pets more and more on social media, and the situations oftentimes look really benevolent or even cute, however they may not be, and us interacting with the posts could be making it worse.

Could you explain to us as to how.

[00:01:43] Devon: So we know what is clear from the like trends and comments on posts is that the public often fail to recognize this content as problematic. If they’re liking it, that usually means they are seeing this content as favorable. So that’s problem number one. And uh, we need to go back to educating people and increasing awareness about these red flags to look for so that they don’t respond favorably and increase the popularity of these videos.

We also know that simply just watching a video, even if you don’t comment on it, even if you don’t react to it in any way, um, this only increases the popularity of these videos and the number of people they can ultimately reach, which is really problematic because a lot of the accounts that post these exploitative videos of animals are actually often linked to exotic animal breeders and distributors, people that sell them.

So it’s that much easier for people to access them. And own them themselves. And so by propagating these videos that actively exploit animals just for people’s entertainment, we know that this fuels population declines in the wild. Um, animal cruelty and abuse, public safety hazards, and then the decline of native species because these animals can escape from where they’re being kept or they’re just released.

So these effects are further exacerbated when videos are shared widely and liked widely. I mean,

[00:03:06] Crystal: even if you comment negatively, like This is wrong, this is cruel, this is abuse. Mm-hmm. That’s giving the algorithm, the algorithm doesn’t know, so it’s just telling the algorithm, push this out further. It’s super popular.

So, exactly,

[00:03:21] Devon: exactly. Don’t even wanna, wanna spoil. A lot of people don’t realize, and the way the algorithm works also is if you are. Looking at a certain type of video. So if you’re interested in baby monkey videos and the algorithm recognizes that you keep searching for that content, it will keep giving you more and more content that’s similar to that, so, mm-hmm.

It’s just this cycle that really snowballs and it gets out of control.

[00:03:46] Crystal: All right, so there’s a lot of things I wanna unpack here. First, I wanna point out that you mentioned that these accounts can fuel population declines in the wild, and that’s because many exotic pets didn’t necessarily come from a breeding situation.

Many pets and especially the babies are acquired by poaching them from the wild. Oftentimes having to kill the mother or a family group to get to them, as I’m sure you know. So that’s a problem for a whole other episode. But if people are failing to recognize that certain content is problematic, what are some red flags that we can look out for, that we can, for us to take notice to?

[00:04:28] Devon: Yeah, so we actually just came out with a report about wild animals in social media a few months ago. It’s called Their Lives for Your Likes, and we looked into this exact issue. It was framed in a way where social media platforms like Facebook, Instagram, they’re not necessarily regulating the animal content that we view as.

Cruel and abusive and exploitative for wild animals. They don’t view it as that, so they’re not regulating it and taking it down or hiding it from people’s profiles as much as we would like. So instead, we kind of put the responsibility in the social media user’s hands and educated them that way. To exactly your question.

So how can you recognize if you’re witnessing problematic content? Questions you wanna be asking yourself are, does this video show wild animal in direct physical contact to humans? Um, that’s a really important one cuz even content that is posted from legitimate rescue and rehabilitation centers, like they will still post videos of wild animals, but they will not post.

Pictures or videos where humans are directly interacting with them other than a veterinary situation, a feeding situation, because they know that that content is harmful. Same with is the animal outside of their natural environment? That can be a red flag. Is the animal alone in a natural social grouping?

Um, having contact with an animal of a different species, that might seem unusual. Are they depicted with human objects that don’t appear to be for their benefit? So like if a baby monkey is wearing a diaper or clothing, wild animals inside people’s houses, those are all red flags. And then lastly, does the video feature infant animals without their mothers?

That’s one of the biggest ones that you can look for and you can know right away it’s not good content. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:19] Crystal: What can you do if you come across this kind of content with, in your social media feed?

[00:06:24] Devon: Yeah, so the first thing that is super quick and easy, you can report any abusive content directly to the website or the platform.

Second, you can petition social media outlets to modify their definition of harmful animal content to reflect a definition that is more in line with wild animal welfare, which may not exactly be so similar to domestic animal welfare. And then third, just don’t view like or comment, save, post or share the content, as we said, even dislikes or quote, angry reactions or comments will add to the overall popularity.

So restraining from doing that even if you want to. And then last I would say just educating others on recognizing this harmful animal content and how to decrease its impact. So sharing these responses with other people and. Especially like if a close friend of yours shares a problematic video, you can always message them privately and just be like, Hey, this is not okay, and this is why.

And you can always, you know, send them information from us. Like our report that I mentioned that covered all of these topics, which is called their Lives for your likes, and it explains everything about why, why this is bad. So those are some easy steps that anyone can do. Send me a link to

[00:07:45] Crystal: that report and I’ll include it in the show

[00:07:46] Devon: notes.

Awesome. Yes. Thank you. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:49] Crystal: Now taking this discussion one step further, sometimes these quote unquote pets are used for profit often by allowing people to interact with them. You see this in so many different ways. There could be some guy getting you to pay him to take pictures with his pagana or sloth when you’re on vacation or elephant rides, or getting to hold baby tigers.

What kind of training goes into, for example, elephant riding?

[00:08:17] Devon: Yeah, so this is again, where a lot of people just don’t have the awareness or education about what actually goes into things like this, because this is similar to what happens for a lot of different animal species that are trained to do really, really unnatural things.

Especially be within close contact, close proximity to humans and not. Behave aggressively. So essentially what they do is, um, even though female elephants stay with their mothers for life, typically, and males do until they’re early teens, the first step in training an elephant to have someone on their back is to break the bond between the babies and the mothers.

So when they are a little over a year, trainers will separate the mothers from the infants, which is incredibly traumatic. And then they will actually anchor the mothers with chains on their feet to the floor or a wall. And then these babies, these baby elephants will spend most of their early years being restrained by ropes or bars or chains, only able to move when they are instructed to do so by the trainer.

Trainers also use a tool called a bull hook, which is a long pole with a sharp metal hook on the end, and they essentially use it to abuse the elephants. People that use it will say they, they train quote elephants with it. It’s a training tool quote, but it’s really just a method to inflict abuse on these animals and make them submissive in every situation to humans because they are fearful.

Of humans, it stabs them. Exactly. Yeah. And we’ve seen pictures from different organizations that have investigated this practice where elephants are bleeding, they have scars. It’s really awful. So some will be starved or deprived of sleep to establish total human doin dominance over the elephants, which all of these things are often referred to as breaking the elephant spirit.

So essentially they’re just so torn down by people they. Don’t want to react in a protective manner for themselves. So obviously all of these things are very cruel and unethical, and I think if the general public knew about all of this, they would not. Want to engage in elephant rides or photo props with the animals.

And it’s important to know also that a lot, well probably most of the traveling exhibitions that keep elephants don’t have the resources to keep elephants in larger enclosures. So these elephants are also chained pretty much all the time when they’re not on display or involved in some kind of animal show.

And, Yeah, it’s, it’s just awful. And I do also wanna mention that some zoos still use bull hooks for elephant training. The AZA began phasing them out in 2019, which is very recent. They defended them as a quote, essential management tool until recently, and they’re aiming to have a phase out of all Bull hook use by this year, 2023.

We’ll see, but that’s, yeah, that’s primarily for the facilities that have open contact experiences with elephants.

[00:11:25] Crystal: And what about just taking photos with an animal? Like if, like I said, if you’re on vacation and some guy with an iguana comes up to you mm-hmm. What’s the, what’s the danger in

[00:11:36] Devon: that? Yeah. The same training strategies will go into, Training animals to stand or sit on a person’s shoulder as they would for something like elephant riding.

So punishment styles of training are used very frequently. So I mean, that’s essentially animal abuse if you really take it for what it is. So yeah, if people are participating in things like photo ops, they, I think they don’t always make the connection between what goes on. Outside of those snapshot moments, like how the animals’ lives are when they’re not on display for tourists or for the general public, they probably go back to an extremely small cage, like a, for most primates, they might be kept in like a bird cage for their whole lives.

That’s pretty standard for pets actually, and a lot of private ownership. Environments, or they’re just chained. They’ll have like a collar, like a metal collar around their neck with like a, a leash that will be anchored to something. So, so, so a lot of them only have, you know, like a couple feet radius around where that leash is anchored, and that’s their whole life.

So it’s really restrictive and really sad to think about how these animals spend most of their time and then when they’re not, Anchor down somewhere in their off time when they are working, which is really what they’re doing. If they’re giving people rides, if they’re posing for photos, it’s usually during the heat of the day.

It’s not like they are given, you know, their 15 minute work break that’s required for every four hours worked or whatever, like a lot of humans have. It’s just they don’t have that luxury. They are just working and. Yeah, they don’t, they don’t deserve that kind of life. So I think if more people knew that they would probably not wanna do these things.

[00:13:32] Crystal: Mm-hmm. And I’m sure they’re not necessarily given the proper amount of water or food. And I’ve even seen instances where you could tell an animal is drugged. Hmm. And I, if they’re not drugged, they could just be dangerous. So. Mm-hmm. These are all things to consider, but you never. Think that what you’re seeing is bad, cuz nobody wants to believe that.

Mm-hmm. Nobody wants to believe that anybody would have any kind of male intent. So, oh, and I, I wanted to bring this up too because even just taking selfies with animals in the wild could be dangerous for you and for the animal. Um, there was recently a case where a wild walrus in Norway who was just living his life.

Was actually put down because he became such a sensation that the animal, that the people who were getting dangerously close to take pictures with him and just, they were just being idiots. And so the city decided that they had to put him down for safety reasons, even though he was literally just like that’s where he lived.

That’s he was just being himself. And because people got out of control wanting to take pictures. That’s what they determined. So it’s, it’s really a fine, fine line.

[00:14:54] Devon: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that case. I think we wrote a blog on that when it happened. Yeah. It’s really sad. People put these animals in such dangerous situations for the animals and for the people themselves and.

The public safety of the humans is always gonna take priority over the animals. So we see that with when animals escape from zoos, tranquilizing them isn’t always an option, especially if it’s a really, really dangerous animal that’s unpredictable, which they all are. So a lot of the time tranquilizing an animal which takes it can take several minutes to an hour to take effect.

They’re not gonna do that if the animal is posing an immediate threat to the public. So they’ll shoot the animal dead a lot of times just to make sure that the animal doesn’t attack the people. So, yeah, it’s, it’s a real shame because that is entirely the people’s fault, and they cost that walrus their whole life, so.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s really sad and I, I, that’s definitely not the only example of that either. Mm-hmm. What could be

[00:15:56] Crystal: some indicators that the animals being used in these interactions are distressed that people can look

[00:16:03] Devon: out for? Hmm. Yeah, so it, it really does depend on the species because every species is different.

But for primates, for example, behaviors that are often really misinterpreted on a really regular basis include the quote, smile that people see and they think that the monkeys are happy or they think it means the same as it would for people. But it actually signifies that the primate is experiencing extreme fear or stress.

And that is also the same for another behavior that monkeys will do, which is an open mouth threat face where they kind of like, like make an O with their mouth. And people, I’ve seen this a lot on Instagram and similar platforms where people post something like they’re doing a magic trick for a monkey at the zoo, and then the monkey reacts like, You know, doing their open mouth threat face, which to humans, if they don’t know anything about pri behavior, that looks like, oh, they’re surprised at the magic trick.

Like, haha. But in reality, that threatening face means that the monkey is really, really angry and they are. They, they think that their life or members of their group’s lives are. In danger. And usually right after they do that threatening face, if the threat doesn’t go away, they will attack, they’ll act on that aggression that they feel.

So yeah, it’s, it’s very common in social media posts especially that we see these behaviors that are really, really clear indicators of the animals just having a horrible time and the people just don’t understand and they prolong these states of fear. Stress, aggression, and it’s really awful to see.

[00:17:44] Crystal: And if an animal’s doing a repetitive behavior, like moving back and forth, back and forth, I’ve, I’ve seen it being described as, oh, they’re dancing.

Mm-hmm. They, they like the music that we’re playing, they’re dancing. No, that’s, that’s one clear indicator of distress, so. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. That’s one thing to, to keep an eye out for ’em.

[00:18:06] Devon: Yeah. Anything the animal is doing over and over again is not normal. Uh, similar to that, but the opposite. If they are very inactive and they’re just kind of like zoned out and they’re not drugged, which a lot of the time they do drug them, but if they happen to not be drugged, that indicates that the animal is just depressed and they’ve just given up on.

Everything, which we see just like a general apathy in captivity, it happens to a lot of wild animals. Well, one

[00:18:37] Crystal: infamous example that we’re talking about that I think a lot of people know about is Joe exotic and his Tiger interactions born free has been one of the key players behind the passage of the Big Cat Public Safety Act that you mentioned among not too long ago.

Tell

[00:18:55] Devon: me about that. Yeah, so that was a huge win for us and for the handful of other organizations that have been campaigning for that legislation for about 10 years. It was first introduced in 2012, and then it was just passed in December of 2022. So I. It took a very long time, but, so we worked with some other organizations, individual citizens and champions on Capitol Hill to pass that bill.

And so what that bill did was it banned the private ownership of and, um, public interaction with most big cat species in the United States. So it was finally signed into law by President Biden in December of 2022. So that essentially supersedes the patchwork of state legislation that’s across the country that is all different and very hard to keep track of, cuz the legality of owning big cat species was different depending on what state you lived in, as it is in general with most wild animal species.

So that patchwork of state legislation was really ineffective in curbing both the pet trade and the cub petting industry. So those are huge wins for, for big cats in general because the pet trade is horrible for all of the reasons we’ve already touched on with other animals. And cub petting is also just extremely cruel.

So it’s amazing that those practices will be decreased as a result of this bill passage. And the other thing that Bill does is existing big cats that are kept privately will be grandfathered. Meaning that they can continue to continue to be kept just as long as they’re registered with the state, the new law.

So it’s, it’s amazing and it will, it will help prevent thousands of cubs from entering the private trade within the United States, which is, which is huge.

[00:20:48] Crystal: Excellent. Congratulations

[00:20:49] Devon: about that. Thank you. Yeah, it was really amazing.

[00:20:53] Crystal: Well, so this, that might be the answer to my next question, but I wanted you to tell me about a time where you said to yourself, This, this is why I do it.

[00:21:02] Devon: Yeah, that’s a great question. I, I think I have to go with my time when I was actually a caregiver at the Primate Sanctuary. So in my role before, my current position as a campaigns associate with Born Free, I think. And this is what really got me into wanting to work in campaigns because at the sanctuary, we would rescue monkeys that had never been outside before in their entire lives.

They’re like adult monkeys, and they had never touched grass, seen a tree, felt the sun on their face, never interacted with another monkey that looks like them. So to see that moment when they step out of. You know, the transfer crate, whatever, they came in and they’re finally outside in this big enclosure and more space than they’ve ever had in their entire life.

That will pretty much bring anyone to tears. And seeing that is just the most special thing in the world. And that’s really why I wanted to get into campaigns because it was amazing to see that work on an individual basis and make that much of a difference for one Monkey’s life. But to really work for the root causes of these issues.

So trying to stop the primate pet trade at the root of the problem instead of treating these larger symptoms, which is rescuing monkeys that need to be, that has been so amazing. So, yeah, I think I have to go with, with those examples. I

[00:22:34] Crystal: personally so often feel overwhelmed by all of the problems and issues that are faced by wildlife.

What do you do when, when you feel overwhelmed by it all? Yeah,

[00:22:46] Devon: it’s definitely hard not to sometimes because there is so much out there when if you think about it all at once, you just go kind of crazy and it seems hopeless, but you really do just have to take yourself back to how much of a difference you can make just for one life, like one animal’s life.

If you can save one animal from entering a accrual. Practice and living a life of misery, that should be enough to do what you’re doing and to continue doing it. So the work we’re doing, ultimately legislation is really what will save the most animals from harm, and that’s what we work for at the end of the day, because that’s where we see the biggest impact.

But when that’s not always possible. Just going back to that one animal. Baseline and just knowing that as long as you’re helping at least one animal, or as long as you’re informing one person about a problem and changing their mind, I think that is amazing in itself. And that’s how you do end up changing the world.

It just takes like small drops in the bucket over a long period of time, and then once before you know it, the bucket’s full and it tips over. It takes consistency and it takes. Dedication for sure. But it’s important to just know that that’s just the process. Now, how could the

[00:24:09] Crystal: listener help? I mean, we kind, we talked about a few different ways just throughout our conversation.

Do you have anything to add on how the listener can help? Yeah, so I.

[00:24:20] Devon: Some things that you can do would be not to visit or support places that keep wild animals in captivity in these awful situations that we’ve talked about. So if you go on vacation, you, you probably don’t wanna do anything that involves wild animals, really just to be safe, because nowadays even places that look legit are not.

So, I would just say stop supporting anywhere that exploits wild animals for their own gain. And second to that, I would say visit our website born free usa.org. And we have all of our resources there. We have an Adopt a Monkey program for people that would like to become more directly involved in our primate sanctuary.

Virtually not in your home. Yes. Yeah. No, I, uh, you can symbolically adopt one of our monkeys so they stay at the sanctuary. And then if you, if you choose to, we send like a fun. Information package about them. We’ll send like a bio, some pictures of them. It’s really great. And also, I mean, share, read, and share our reports widely.

We have reports on wild animals and captivity, the fur trade trapping. Um, and we’re, we’re soon going to launch a report about the welfare efficient aquariums and the lack of legislation and regulations for their care. And then last, I would just say follow us on social media so you can stay up to date with new things that are going on in the animal world.

We could always appreciate more followers. So,

[00:25:50] Crystal: and I’ll, and I’ll put links to all of those, like your social media and website and all that in the show notes. Perfect. Devin, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s, this is really dear subject to my heart, so I appreciate the chance to chat about it.

Thank you for all that you’re doing. You’re making a difference.

[00:26:09] Devon: Great. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure being here with you.

[00:26:21] Crystal: Unfortunately, it’s not that hard to acquire a wild animal as a pet. But it’s never a good idea for you or the animal. Oftentimes, they’re taken from their mothers who might be killed for them, and then it’s incredibly difficult for a regular person to be capable of providing for the needs of that animal, especially as they grow.

Do your homework and think twice before participating in any wild animal interactions. What conditions do they live in? Do they have free will? No one wants to accidentally be supporting practices that harm animals and with a little forethought, we can avoid it. Don’t forget to go to forces for nature.com and sign up to receive emailed show notes, action tips, and a free checklist to help you start taking practical actions today.

Do you know someone else who would enjoy this episode? I would be so grateful if you would share it with them. Hit me up on Instagram and Facebook at becoming Forces for Nature, and let me know what actions you have been taking. Adopting just one habit can be a game changer because imagine if a million people also adopted that.

What difference for the world are you going to make today?