Crystal: Today’s episode is brought to you by force of nature cleaner. It’s more important than ever to make sure that your home is free of nasty viruses and bacteria, but how can you be sure that the cleaners you’re using aren’t leaving behind toxins with other nasty side effects, force of nature. Cleaner is an all natural EPA registered disinfectant that kills 99.9% of germs.

Be sure to get yours today through the link in the show notes. I’m crystal demon, Shelley, and welcome to the forces for nature show.

you find yourself overwhelmed with all the doom and gloom you hear of these days. Do you feel like you as just one person can’t really make a difference forces for nature cuts through that negativity. In each episode, I interview someone who is doing great things for animals in the environment. We talked through the problem.

They’re addressing the solution. They have found what keeps them going. And we’ll leave you with practical action tips so that you too can become a force for nature. Today’s guest is Julio. Create them. He’s an Ecuadorian lawyer working with the union of people affected by Texaco, the organization, otherwise known as you adapt.

He has been a key player in one of the most well-known battles against environmental injustice. The case of Ecuador versus Chevron Texaco. After 20 years of litigation Leo’s team won the case that found Chevron to be guilty of egregious pollution and irresponsibility in the Ecuadorian rainforest.

However, 10 years later, he’s still fighting for the settlement that would benefit the tens of thousands impacted. We talk about his lessons, learned his most recent victory and why, despite the impossible odds, he will never give up.

Hi, Julio. Thank you for joining me on forces for nature. It’s so great to have you.

Julio: Hi crystal. Thank you for having me.

Crystal: Let’s dive right in. What were the allegations that were brought against Chevron?

Julio: Well, Sharon operated in Ecuador, I’m assume from the sixties to the nineties. Ecuador were new as a country to oil extraction and Sharon a diet at that time was called Texaco was the one responsible for building and operating each and every single oil field in Naples or an Amazon.

The problem is that they choose to deploy all technology and disposal techniques that were forbidden at that time in the U S. For example, they decided that produced water, which is a toxic waste, should be disposed at rivers. That drilling modes real muds are to be varied. And that gas was to be floured.

They decided to ignore that local indigenous population heavily dependent on the jungle to survive. So after all those decades of toxic waste disposal in our jungle, people got cancer and other diseases related to oil. These were unknown to them. Their lands were polluted and the rivers poison, there are 400,000 hectors polluted and 30,000 affected people.

This is including five different indigenous communities and farmers. So in 1993, we filed a class action into Europe claiming that the company was responsible for health impacts related to environmental pollution. The case was sent back to Ecuador because Sharon Watson wanted to avoid litigation in the U S so they argued that Ecuadorian courts were perfect place to hear this case.

Then in 2003, we were, we were sent back to Ecuador for another dangers of litigation. Then after those 10 years, we won the case. Yes. After all those years, we got our judgment or there in Sharon to pay more than $9 billion. You

Crystal: say that Chevron came in and didn’t follow the same protocols that they were required to follow in the United States.

What are those protocols? What are the steps that are normally, or should be taken to protect the environment when oil is being extracted?

Julio: You know, the eldest Sharon shift have done in Ecuador was the same. They were already doing at that time in the United States. I mean, Sharon knew very well, what steps should be taken to protect the environment, but did not deploy that technology in Ecuador.

For example, Chevron had already protected and deployed technology to re-inject produce water into the underground in the U S. While in Ecuador produce water was dumped into rivers. As I just told you, another example is exactly another example is in the United States, toxic waste is a storage in line beads or steel facilities.

While in Ecuador, Chevron just digs from online beads from whole plane bids in the Amazon ground. That I’ll always build on filtrations that poison also underground water sources. This is just to call a few. If we talk about that’s flaring as well, that was polluting the clouds in causing acid rain. So there were no safe source of water for these people.

Crystal: So in 2011, the highest court in Ecuador ordered Chevron to pay 9.5 billion us dollars for the damages found and Chevron refused what has happened since

Julio: you’re right. Terrible, refuse to pay instead of complying or negotiating unexperienced fair and compressive settlement with affected communities in Ecuador, Chevron managed to clear the country.

And to Sue us back. Cheryl started shopping for a sympathetic judge in the U S until they found one in New York, judge Lewis Kaplan, who is also a shareholder in the company. He took the case, refused to have a jury deciding and gave full credit to the testimony of a former Ecuadorean judge who got paid over $2 million.

Move along with all his family to live in Florida, all expenses included in exchange for his testimony later. He admitted he was lying in order to get paid, but it doesn’t matter to judge goblin, Chevron hide as much as 2000 lawyers and public relations companies for what they call a rescue operation.

So they start demonizing Ecuadorian judiciary and the victim themselves. Even we as attorneys where target, we lost it, you know, a former member of our teams, Steven does ginger is right now under house arrest for contempt with this questionable decision. Also I was living in Ecuador. I got a suit Duaner four from this judge asking me to provide full access to all my emails.

Of course I have a fuse because courts did not have any jurisdiction over me at that point. And because confined with such order. It’s a crime, according to Ecuadorian criminal, protecting the attorney client privilege. I also got interrogated by the FBA agents at my house while I was at grad school in the U S so these are some of the things that Chevron did since the judgment.

On the other hand, going outside since Cheryl left behind only 300. Yeah. $60 in their bank account. Before free in Ecuador, we initiated a legal actions to seize Chevron assets in Argentina, Brazil, and Canada. It’s a long story, but to make a short in Argentina, Chevron bribed the precedent to get rid of the scissor over their assets in Canada.

The case was pending before the Supreme court. And on the last minute, our government depository and government bent it’s knee. I request the Supreme court to dismiss the case. And this happened as the result of Mike Pence, visiting our country to settle some disturbing issues as he does

Crystal: settle for a Chevron.

Julio: Of course.

Crystal: Yeah. Does that mean? The cases done Chevron is scot-free they’re able to walk away with this with no penalties, no

Julio: consequences. No, they won’t. No, they won’t. We are not down yet. I mean, the case may be done in the us for now. The case may be down in Argentina number seal in Canada, but there are many, many more countries.

Chevron has assets in more than a hundred countries over the world. And we’re planning to go after them.

Crystal: How does the court in New York have jurisdiction over a ruling and Ecuador,

Julio: and they start this by filing a petition to access the acumen station that according to them was to be helpful in a different proceeding.

Did, this is call a 70 82 process. Is that that’s according to New York law. So they request all this documentation and then they file a claim under the Rico act. I can get that much into the details, but that I know for sure that we had no jury, that the witness was paid and the, and then later he admitted lying for the money.

And, and that judge Kaplan is a shareholder at the company

Crystal: and this kind of thing is happening all over the world in many different countries.

Julio: Yes. That’s the problem all over the world. Christine Chevron is facing claims in Nigeria, in Argentina, and even there in the United States at Richmond, California.

It also facing justice in Australia for tax evasion, wherever Chevron is operating, it brings trouble to local communities. But not only that Chevron is an expert at loving and capturing public officer’s will. So they are convinced that they can get away with it and we are committed to prove them wrong.

And you know, the problem is that this is not happening just with Sharon complex crimes are committed by corporations have been reported around the world. Just think that the San Marco mining days in Brazil, Or are they all, or the BP all spilling in the Gulf of Mexico or even the use of child labor in the chocolate industry?

So the enemy from my point of view is corporate power, which is fueled by corporate greed and corruption abroad.

Crystal: You as a lawyer in your role, you’re up against these corporations with all the money and all the resources in the world. When you first started, what made you even think that you could have the power to make any change?

Julio: Well, I started working on this case as soon as I became a lawyer this way, my first case. So I really had no idea what I was getting involved with. When I went to law school, I did it because I wanted to fight for justice. I know it sounds like a cliche, but I was young and I saw Erin Brockovich. I also watched a civil action with John Travolta.

You know, at that point it sounded as a fantastic idea to engage Chevron. It was when I was studying for, so I did believe I had the power to make a change. Erin or John Travolta did, they may learn that it was more complicated than that. It’s not that I was wrong, but it is far more complicated than that.

You don’t find that alone. We do have the power to make a change, but the power is greater when we fight together, that union makes us stronger. We all know that. And now I know that I can not fight Chevron by myself. No one can, but Sharon can not fight all of us. So sit back and watch the show, because this is far from being over.

We are more United than ever.

Crystal: Moving past that case, you recently had another victory with a lawsuit brought by nine indigenous girls against the burning off of the natural gas produced by other oil extraction, the gas flaring that you mentioned. Can you tell me about that?

Julio: Yeah, sure. Those are very good news.

Remember I told you about gas flaring facilities built by Sharon. Well, we found more than 440 of them. 447. If I remember quite well, and some are very close to schools or people’s homes, people complain about this mail, the noise, but mostly because they are getting sick. Many of them with cancer, some are dead already.

So nine girls decided to fight back. Each one of them has some close related, they dying with cancer. So those girls decided they were not going to wait to get sick and that they will compensations for their families and neighbors. So we Sue the government, according to law in Ecuador, it’s illegal to flare gas to burn these gas, but the government keeps issuing permits that are supposed to be exceptional.

They issue them every single year. And now, because of these brave girls, they won’t be able to keep doing it. This decision is final. However, experience with final decisions show us that fight is not over until justice is served and justice is served when victims are compensated.

Crystal: And this is so recent that.

We haven’t had a chance to see that yet. Correct?

Julio: Exactly. Right in the middle of the movie.

Crystal: Yeah. So with this gas flaring with burning off of natural gas, why wouldn’t they just harvest that natural gas instead, especially since. You said it was against Ecuadorian law to burn it

Julio: there again, I believe it’s all about corporate interest.

It’s a huge business for some people. And let me explain this. The company that built of the gasoline instructor is our friend Sharon. They build it this way because it’s cheaper to waste it than to harvest it. They were concerned on producing oil at a lower. Possible costs over the years, a few powerful people found a way to make money by selling few for electricity generation, to these oil facilities, the same old facilities that are burning gas at the same time are buying diesel to produce energy.

So if all companies were to Harbor their gas and use it to produce energy, this whole business will be over. So the, this is about interests in business, people doing business.

Crystal: Yeah. Meanwhile, they could just make it more of a closed loop where they utilize rather than waste the gas that they’re producing.

Julio: That’s what we’re aiming at. And that’s what they will be forced to do now with the decision from this

Crystal: case and these girls, what are their ages?

Julio: Eh, from nine to 17. That’s impressive. Yeah, they are very committed and decided girls. I will love if you can chat with them one day and you will find that they are really supporting this, this case.

Not because their parents are telling them, but because they believe in it, they are the engine behind this.

Crystal: Actually total side note. I will not really. Aside note, I recently came across a Vogue article with Elena she’s. She’s an indigenous Ecuadorian girl. I don’t know how old she is. Maybe teenager, I think.

Is she part of the group?

Julio: No, she’s from the  community. She is to the South.

Crystal: Unfortunately there seems to be plenty of fights to be had.

Julio: Yeah. I mean, our, our jungle has been blessed according to some, with oil, for local population that is not blessed at all.

Crystal: Of course not if environmental damage takes place, especially for indigenous communities, it’s polluting the water that they used to drink and they used to be then that they used to fish and the lands where food comes from it’s completely stripping away.

People’s livelihoods and their entire communities. And this is

Julio: especially, it’s especially bad for indigenous people because they really depends on nature. You and me, we take water from the kitchen, from the bathroom. We take our food from the supermarket in our medicines, from the rockstar. They take everything, their medicines, their food they’re there.

The wire for everything is on the jungle. Um, and when the jungle East is polluted, they are being poisoned from everywhere. There’s no choice for them. Don’t underground water, no river water nor rain rainwater.

Crystal: The same goes for the wildlife in that area. They’re just as affected because their food and water is destroyed.

So for everything living, it’s a disaster, but let’s try to move towards something a little bit later. So you had this recent victory, which I hope has some amazing results very soon in terms of compensation for those families. But can you tell me about another time when you said to yourself this, this is why I do it, you know, a proud moment, a success story, something along those lines.

Julio: That’s a, that’s a great question. You know, I can tell you that I’m really proud of what I’m doing when I’m in court. Why? Because there’s when I get to answer to those greedy lawyers, I mean, it’s great to speak out after listening to their life. Usually it’s hard to get a chance to speak out the two to their faces.

Worst in front of a judge. And since I can remember it grieves me. When I hear company only lawyer blaming health conditions on their indigenous victims. They say they are sick because of lack of sanitary conditions of potable water. Not because of their massive pollution they are producing. It boils my blood when they there to demand medical records to certificate that an elder indigenous person got cancer because of their waste.

So then that moment before I get to speak out, I know that’s why I’m doing it. I know I won’t be winning all cases, but I will speak out every single time.

Crystal: We need so many people who are willing to speak out against what they feel is unjust. Now, have you learned any lessons that you can share with the listener about fighting these big guys that have endless resources to fight back?

Julio: Well, yes, don’t trust them. Don’t ever trust those big guys. They will stop at nothing. They will then demonize you, Sue you aspire you in, not in America. They will kill you for opposing their interests. So do not share any sensitive information over the internet or with people you don’t really trust.

Remember that many people will live what they see in the media. And the guys on that media, they have the power to ring, watch their reputations while making you look like the bad guy they want, who are post progress. And when final advise will be working, Minga is, is a kitchen work for a collective action.

Collective work. Eh, when, when the museum was population in air region, when they need to do something for the community, they call for a Mingo. And everyone in that sound has, has to work at building a road, building the park, or doing something for the community. They do it together. So work in Minga,

Crystal: please work together.

Now, what are the next steps for this case? These cases? Um,

Julio: well, that’s top secret. I can not tell you the next country where we will be enforcing the judgment, but I do concern you that is not one or two, but a coordinated action, aiming to seize as many assets as necessary to comply with the full amount of the judgment.

Crystal: You’re working in Mingo with other countries. So now it’s three overwhelming to think about what’s happening there and to feel helpless, to do anything. Do you have any thoughts on what the listener can do to help from wherever they are?

Julio: Well, us, as people affected by Chevron, we will fight for our territories worldwide.

We fight for the lives of our people, but also for humanity and for environmental justice. So we have now launched a call to four shop organizations, students, academics, journalists, professionals, indigenous people, and to you to participate in a great Minga in order to stop the impunity of those who manage the corporate power.

What can we do is speak out. We invite you to join us on the anti Chevron Bay. We’ve been doing this for years. What is the auntie Sharon Day? Well, this is a day when chevrons victims all over the world, speak out right before the annual shareholders meeting. So yeah, just to speak out from now until the 25 so that the world can be heard by Chevron and its shareholders.

So let’s raise our voices. I mean, we, the people can win the battle against corporate Grimes. Because we shall not be partners of these corporations, no couch in it with our silence. So speak out, please. That’s all I’m asking.

Crystal: May 25th. This is perfect timing. Where can people find information about that? Is there a website?

Is there a social media site where they can sign up and know what they can do?

Julio: The victims of Chevron are and United at the union of affected people by testicle is called you that you can find them on web www U D a P T dot. Oh, or D would that dot or there’s also the hashtag the share room for this campaign so they can hear you and what, I’m not very  since Mo since most of my communications are being tracked, I don’t do Instagram or Facebook anymore, but I do to eat from time to time.

Mostly miss Spanish, though.

Crystal: Do you have any advice or first steps that one can take if they find that an existing project or proposed project in their community raises environmental, social, or animal welfare concerns?

Julio: Well, I will say get organized, gather people, gather information, gather resources.

These fives are not easy to fight, but you need to will. And the will usually comes from real problems affecting society before starting any fight, organize, look for more people that are facing the same problem that are looking at the same risks as you look for information and, and yen. Don’t sit on your hands and wait for someone else to, to do all the job.

Crystal: That’s great advice. This has been very interesting and Julio, you have done incredible work and thank you so much for everything that you do. You’re making a

Julio: difference. You’re welcome. And thanks to you for inviting me. And for letting me share these with all your audience,

Crystal: Julio has made it his life’s work to defend the underdog.

To win these landmark cases against one of the biggest corporations in the world takes some serious guts and determination, but it’s these sentiments that we all need in order to stand up to whatever injustices we see happening in our own backyards. These kinds of fights can seem impossible with odds, stacked grossly out of our favor, but Julio proves the value of endurance and working together.

Fighting for what you believe is right, is not always going to be easy, but it’s always going to be worth it.

Don’t forget to go to forces for nature.com and sign up to receive email shownotes action tips and a free guide to help you start taking practical actions today. Do you know someone else who would enjoy this episode? I would be so grateful if you would share it with them. Hit me up on Instagram and Facebook.

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